Self-deploy?

[W3TDH]

Jim K3MRI

Yes that is exactly what I had in mind. It avoids the bad reactions that deploying into the operational area engender and yet makes those who do so the nearest resource of it's kind. The objective in preparing to do this would be in assembling a team with a truly diverse set of skills to provide the widest range of capabilities. Each offered service would have to have two fully qualified lead operators. One or both of them would have to cross train the remainder of the team in how to support the deployment of that resource to the affected area as needed.

Emergency Management is now talking about fuel for generators and operating grocery stores as community lifelines.

One example of a very supportive deliverable would be to provide basic connectivity so that electronic payment could be available for buying such necessities. An inexpensive long range wireless connection out of the quieted area would be one way to be a lot of help. We connect the EOC 1st, Hospital 2nd, Grocery 3rd, bank branch 4th, and then connect one or more otherwise operational fuel stations...

I don't know how to find my way around in an IP stack nor program a IP network. But I can take a laptop, network transceivers, antennas, and support to some effective point. I could install the transceiver antenna support. You have to be able to keep the antennas aimed without attendance. And then aim the antennas at the other points to be served, and adjust them until the software likes the signal.

I could do that to as many points of use as were wanted by the officials in situ without messing with any ARES or other services engaged in direct radio support. I cannot imagine a hospital not wanting to have at least basic email service restored nor an EOC for that matter. And if what is needed is to install some basic alarm transmission path between the fire alarm dispatch office and fire stations those same techniques would work there as well. We would certainly need 2 or more operators who could program and control the network but those of us who had cross trained on the node installation tasks would be real force multipliers to that effort. That is just one example.

Imagine how welcome a transportable repeater and a mast to get it's antenna 50 feet above whatever it was sitting on might be. We would need to be able to set that mast up on different types of surfaces even if that involved a star drill and a 5 pound drilling hammer.

[Side Note: "So John Henry say to the shaker. Now shaker you better pray. Cause I'm swinging 20 pounds from my hips on down, if I miss twill be your burying day! If I miss twill be your burying day!" The shaker pulled a  wooden toggle handle on the end of a leather thong wrapped around the  drill bit so it would turn and shook the bit between blows to bring the chips out of the hole. the shaker often worked crouching in the face of the tunnel with the driller back far enough to get a good swing. They drilled holes were the blasters needed them and when the fuse was lit the blaster would shout "Fire in the hole!"]

--

Tom Horne W3TDH

[K3MRI]

Loving where this is going. We need to think and talk this over and then see if there would be a viable funding opportunity and implementation roadmap. Will revert with more thoughts.
As for the fire in the hole...😎

[KD3Y]

My CERT team says if you SD you'll be dismissed on the spot. 

"ICS prohibits self-deployment due to the dangers observed when volunteers freelance or respond individually."

Since I'm considered "communications support" I don't see me needing to SD since I'd have nothing to support without the team present.

[W3TDH]

21 minutes ago, KD3Y said:

My CERT team says if you SD you'll be dismissed on the spot. 

"ICS prohibits self-deployment due to the dangers observed when volunteers freelance or respond individually."

Since I'm considered "communications support" I don't see me needing to SD since I'd have nothing to support without the team present.

That really is only good management. Freelancing entails real additional risks but more importantly it sharply erodes the good will that local amateur radio leadership will have invested a lot of effort in establishing with the local emergency management staff. Even if what you try to do is not in conflict with what is already being done it could cause confusion and disputes over what the relief priorities are. As an example effected people might appreciate access to their money to purchase food, fuel, and similar items but may also resent the delivery of services to a bank but not the affected population. When people are under the stress of being displaced from their homes and/or having lost many irreplaceable unique possessions they are not going to be capable of taking in the rational for the resource priority decisions that are made by emergency managers.

A good example of that sort of misunderstanding was that, in the aftermath of the Nor'easter that was generated by Hurricane Sandy, New York city residents complained bitterly that the huge generators that had been brought in to support the then cancelled New York marathon were left idle instead of being used to supply alternate power. That is understandable if you look at it from the point of view of a layperson who does not understand the scale of the outages relevant to the size of the generators. The units in place looked huge to a lay person. How are they to know that the capacity they represent is not a patch on the coat of the actual need. Additionally it is hard to understand that the power line worker/hours that would go into such an effort would, while aiding hundreds of affected persons, would markedly slow the restoration of normal service to thousands. Each of the complainants probably believed that their problems could be solved by using those generators without understanding how few people could actually be helped by any one of those units.

In the midst of all that some freelancers show up make an arrangement with someone outside the emergency management staff and then deliver service in a manner which appears, to part of the community, to be biased. The freelancers will have planted a powder keg in the middle of the EMAs public information efforts with a very short fuse already lit. EMA management and staff will not appreciate the accusations that will fly their way. That in turn could burn the recognized communications providers down to their ankles and they will truly hate you for doing that to them.

There is, however, one attitude on the part of some emergency managers which I feel is not reasonable in any way shape of form. That is the expectation that some of them have that no one who has volunteered with their agency should provide services to anyone else in any form. Some of them expect such volunteers to remain available to them even in the absence of any present need in the community they are responsible to. I frankly do not see that position as reasonable. People are naturally going to want to exercise their skills in the roll which is immediately needed.

Tom Horne W3TDH

[K3MRI]

@KD3Y and @W3TDH... these are very nuanced points you both make and, I might add, really good food for thought. Tom, could I summarize what you said as 'almost never is self-deployment a good thing'. My question to you is, if I have understood correctly, who determines the 'almost'? You both know my background so you know that I would not want to have stray volunteers entering my theater, but in truth, I have had good samaritans show up and do good. Would I condone it, encourage it? Never. But did I appreciate it in the moment? Most certainly. In one case a trained nurse came out of 'nowhere' and saved lives. As for being a ham and self-deploying, Antony, I get what you mean when you say that communications support is lower on the scale compared, for instance, to a life-saving nurse. But we could make the argument that there are times where we could save a life. Imagine you're a ham, you have a small outboard engine boat. There is a flood. Cell service is down. A child is stranded in a tree. What does one do? Does one use one's HT, call for help, but also get into the boat to go save the child? I know I would. And yet, I don't think I should.

See what I mean... nuanced 😩

[W3TDH]

1 hour ago, K3MRI said:

@KD3Y and @W3TDH... these are very nuanced points you both make and, I might add, really good food for thought. Tom, could I summarize what you said as 'almost never is self-deployment a good thing'. My question to you is, if I have understood correctly, who determines the 'almost'? You both know my background so you know that I would not want to have stray volunteers entering my theater, but in truth, I have had good Samaritans show up and do good. Would I condone it, encourage it? Never. But did I appreciate it in the moment? Most certainly. In one case a trained nurse came out of 'nowhere' and saved lives. As for being a ham and self-deploying, Antony, I get what you mean when you say that communications support is lower on the scale compared, for instance, to a life-saving nurse. But we could make the argument that there are times where we could save a life. Imagine you're a ham, you have a small outboard engine boat. There is a flood. Cell service is down. A child is stranded in a tree. What does one do? Does one use one's HT, call for help, but also get into the boat to go save the child? I know I would. And yet, I don't think I should.

See what I mean... nuanced 😩

Yes I do see what you mean. So why does the Emergency Manager want vetted, swift water first responder qualified operators, self sealing inflatable boats, and water jet propulsion? Why do they want them wearing high float Rescuer Personal Flotation Devices (PFD)s, water rescue helmets, and dry suits? I bet you can guess the answer.

They don't want to invest the limited number of previously vetted and properly equipped water rescue teams in the rescue of would be rescuers. That is why the United States Coast Guard will use the unsafe voyages law to keep such persons out of the affected area. But if you are a Swift Water First Responder who is fully equipped with the right kind of boat, motor, and protective equipment then the Coast Guard would not even be concerned about your presence. If you look and behave like you know what your doing they would not try to apply the Unsafe Voyages Act to you since they have plenty of other work to do.

Tom Horne W3TDH

[KD3Y]

2 hours ago, K3MRI said:

@KD3Y and @W3TDH... these are very nuanced points you both make and, I might add, really good food for thought. Tom, could I summarize what you said as 'almost never is self-deployment a good thing'. My question to you is, if I have understood correctly, who determines the 'almost'? You both know my background so you know that I would not want to have stray volunteers entering my theater, but in truth, I have had good samaritans show up and do good. Would I condone it, encourage it? Never. But did I appreciate it in the moment? Most certainly. In one case a trained nurse came out of 'nowhere' and saved lives. As for being a ham and self-deploying, Antony, I get what you mean when you say that communications support is lower on the scale compared, for instance, to a life-saving nurse. But we could make the argument that there are times where we could save a life. Imagine you're a ham, you have a small outboard engine boat. There is a flood. Cell service is down. A child is stranded in a tree. What does one do? Does one use one's HT, call for help, but also get into the boat to go save the child? I know I would. And yet, I don't think I should.

See what I mean... nuanced 😩

Maybe the gray line is, are you present as a "good samaritan", or are you present as a CERT representative?

I'll give you a couple of real world examples,

During Florence the Newport river flooded.  70 Hwy was blocked to our east by the Newport River and it was blocked to our west by the Neuse River which also flooded.  70 Hwy was under 10 feet of rushing water.  Ambulances couldn't take anyone in my area to Caarteret General to our east becuase the bridge was under water and they couldn't take anyone to Carolina East Hospital in New Bern because the brideg was under water.  We were literally cut off from the rest of the world.  Even the EOC couldn't get fuel for their generators as the tankers could't get here to deliver.   Then came the bad weather and the USGC choppers and life flight choppers were grounded.  A temporary "medical center" was set up at the Newport VFD but resources were few.

The old guy up the street requires oxygen.  He was out.  He couldn't get his tank refilled because the roads were all flooded.  And even if they weren't nowhere was open in the middle of a Cat 4 hurricane to fill them.  Newport Rescue needed their O2 for their firemen emergencies so they didn't have it to spare. However, I had two tanks of 60% oxygen in the garage in the form of two 100 cubic foot steel SCUBA cylinders.  I called my boy who is an EMT on the county bus and asked him why couldn't the old man breathe off my SCUBA regulators?  He said, "Absolutely.  It's all we have.  60% oxygen isn't ideal, but it's better than 20% oxygen.  If his O2 meter alarms and displays "low 02" there's nothing that can be done currently.  He may die."  When I walked into his living room the old man asked, "Did you bring the cavalry?"  I said "No Sir.  The cavalry can't get here.  I'm it." and I rigged up his 02 tube to work off the SCUBA regulator hose with some duct tape.   He was able to breathe off those two cylinders for two days until the choppers were no longer grounded and could fly in proper medical oxygen cylinders.   See, I was there as a "good Samaritan" and I wasn't representing the County or CERT or EMS.  I was just there with a solution to a potentially lethal problem.

The other situation was the people who try to drive thru the water.  We had a lady who attempted to drive across the flooded bridge on 70 Hwy.  I was there with all my scuba gear in the truck as a "spectator".  The Fire Dept was there trying to stop people from crossing the bridge.  She either ignored the firemen who were trying to wave her not to try to cross, or maybe she thought they were signaling her to cross, who knows.  Her car stalled out once the water got up to her windshield then she was stuck.  I told the captain I was a certified Rescue Diver and Master Scuba Diver, had all my gear in the truck, and if they could drive the fire truck out as far as they could, tie me to a rope, I could swim to get her.  Then once I had he they could "reel me in" with the winch on the front bumper.
He was reluctant and declined my offer due to floating debris in the water being dangerous.  But I suited up anyway.  He changed his mind and we did the rescue.  Lucky, because the vehicle soon was nearly all underwater when a Interstate Battery truck came up and decided to cross the bridge.  He didn't see her car as it was nearly underwater and he rear-ended it and finished pushing it into the river.  Lucky for him the big old truck didn't even slow down when he plowed into her Toyota and he was able to back out the way he came once he realized the error of his decision.  Again, in that situation, I was "Joe Blow Volunteer", resident of the little podunk town of Newport, and not representing CERT or any other entity.

We also had some of them good old redneck boys motoring around in their jon boats and some of the "Cajun Navy" volunteers rescuing people and delivering them to the makeshift aide station at the VFD.  They were simply good samaritans as well, not representative of any agency.  The Coast Guard had a crew here with a fast boat but they were stretched thin and usually on another call as you can imagine. 

The jist of it all was there was simply no one to call, even if your cell phone worked.  No one could get to you.  The Sheriffs Dept only had one deep water vehicle and it was constantly on another call as well.  Officers no longer responded in patrol cars because it was just wasn't feasable with roads under 3 to 10 feet of water.   Choppers were grounded.

Sometimes the old adage applies, "You go to war with the Army you have, not the Army you'd like to have."


~KD3Y


 

[KD3Y]

This is a must have for your boofang and orange vest.    Sorry.  I couldn't help it   😁

[K3MRI]

On 11/28/2022 at 7:36 PM, KD3Y said:

Maybe the gray line is, are you present as a "good samaritan", or are you present as a CERT representative?

I'll give you a couple of real world examples,

During Florence the Newport river flooded.  70 Hwy was blocked to our east by the Newport River and it was blocked to our west by the Neuse River which also flooded.  70 Hwy was under 10 feet of rushing water.  Ambulances couldn't take anyone in my area to Caarteret General to our east becuase the bridge was under water and they couldn't take anyone to Carolina East Hospital in New Bern because the brideg was under water.  We were literally cut off from the rest of the world.  Even the EOC couldn't get fuel for their generators as the tankers could't get here to deliver.   Then came the bad weather and the USGC choppers and life flight choppers were grounded.  A temporary "medical center" was set up at the Newport VFD but resources were few.

The old guy up the street requires oxygen.  He was out.  He couldn't get his tank refilled because the roads were all flooded.  And even if they weren't nowhere was open in the middle of a Cat 4 hurricane to fill them.  Newport Rescue needed their O2 for their firemen emergencies so they didn't have it to spare. However, I had two tanks of 60% oxygen in the garage in the form of two 100 cubic foot steel SCUBA cylinders.  I called my boy who is an EMT on the county bus and asked him why couldn't the old man breathe off my SCUBA regulators?  He said, "Absolutely.  It's all we have.  60% oxygen isn't ideal, but it's better than 20% oxygen.  If his O2 meter alarms and displays "low 02" there's nothing that can be done currently.  He may die."  When I walked into his living room the old man asked, "Did you bring the cavalry?"  I said "No Sir.  The cavalry can't get here.  I'm it." and I rigged up his 02 tube to work off the SCUBA regulator hose with some duct tape.   He was able to breathe off those two cylinders for two days until the choppers were no longer grounded and could fly in proper medical oxygen cylinders.   See, I was there as a "good Samaritan" and I wasn't representing the County or CERT or EMS.  I was just there with a solution to a potentially lethal problem.

The other situation was the people who try to drive thru the water.  We had a lady who attempted to drive across the flooded bridge on 70 Hwy.  I was there with all my scuba gear in the truck as a "spectator".  The Fire Dept was there trying to stop people from crossing the bridge.  She either ignored the firemen who were trying to wave her not to try to cross, or maybe she thought they were signaling her to cross, who knows.  Her car stalled out once the water got up to her windshield then she was stuck.  I told the captain I was a certified Rescue Diver and Master Scuba Diver, had all my gear in the truck, and if they could drive the fire truck out as far as they could, tie me to a rope, I could swim to get her.  Then once I had he they could "reel me in" with the winch on the front bumper.

He was reluctant and declined my offer due to floating debris in the water being dangerous.  But I suited up anyway.  He changed his mind and we did the rescue.  Lucky, because the vehicle soon was nearly all underwater when a Interstate Battery truck came up and decided to cross the bridge.  He didn't see her car as it was nearly underwater and he rear-ended it and finished pushing it into the river.  Lucky for him the big old truck didn't even slow down when he plowed into her Toyota and he was able to back out the way he came once he realized the error of his decision.  Again, in that situation, I was "Joe Blow Volunteer", resident of the little podunk town of Newport, and not representing CERT or any other entity.

We also had some of them good old redneck boys motoring around in their jon boats and some of the "Cajun Navy" volunteers rescuing people and delivering them to the makeshift aide station at the VFD.  They were simply good samaritans as well, not representative of any agency.  The Coast Guard had a crew here with a fast boat but they were stretched thin and usually on another call as you can imagine. 

The jist of it all was there was simply no one to call, even if your cell phone worked.  No one could get to you.  The Sheriffs Dept only had one deep water vehicle and it was constantly on another call as well.  Officers no longer responded in patrol cars because it was just wasn't feasable with roads under 3 to 10 feet of water.   Choppers were grounded.

Sometimes the old adage applies, "You go to war with the Army you have, not the Army you'd like to have."

~KD3Y

I want to make an Admin comment on what KD3Y has written above and on the various other posts in this thread. This is what I had always hoped Ham Community would become (we're still far away but getting there), a place where hams would come to discuss in a civil, elevated, informed way. A place where real-world experiences could meet hypotheses. A place where genuine Elmers could give evidence-based, or at least highly-educated, counsel.

Thank you all for taking us in that direction. Now what we need to make this happen is more Elmers, more curious hams, and more engaged members. Like I said, not there yet but trying.

That's it for hijacking this thread, now back to self-deployment. Or else, I'll have to report myself to myself for threadjacking 😏

[W3TDH]

37 minutes ago, KD3Y said:

This is a must have for your boofang and orange vest.    Sorry.  I couldn't help it   😁

That's about right especially with the misspellings.

Tom W3TDH

[WA2WMR]

In serious emergencies, does the ARRL transmit real time bulletins relative to the emergency that would help coordinate volunteers?

[K3MRI]

10 hours ago, WA2WMR said:

In serious emergencies, does the ARRL transmit real time bulletins relative to the emergency that would help coordinate volunteers?

Let’s ask our resident ARES coordinator 😎 @W3TDH

[W3TDH]

5 hours ago, K3MRI said:

Let’s ask our resident ARES coordinator 😎 @W3TDH

When a disaster mitigation effort is ongoing the ARRL's daily bulletin will contain information on the frequencies being used. The do not seem to be consistent about including information on the ARES efforts which are ongoing and I don't know why.

Tom W3TDH

[KC3WII]

My answer depends on how we agree to define “deploy.”

Am I driving through my region and finding myself observing a situation or intercepting a distress call from someone in a bad situation? I’m keying the microphone and I’m self deployed. 

Am I reading about Hawaii fires and buying a plane ticket, renting a zodiac or a helicopter, making my way into the situation and setting up in an affected AOR? No. 

A few thoughts from one who was often responsible for operations in dangerous areas: No one goes in alone. Whether military, fire, or EMS operations, there was always prioritization, logistics support, a plan for egress, and accountability. Without accountability we see poor outcomes. When there are independent operators, there is a good chance they’ll be in the way or worse - become a new victim to prioritize.  

I’d believe that “deploying” into a situation with which one has no training, experience, or familiarity isn’t smart. Even with that training an experience, going it alone is not smart. 

That said, could we deploy when people know who we are and our deployment is coordinated? Sure! But my interpretation of the question is that we’re exploring the concept of “self deploying.” Like... Some guy or gal with a HAM radio wandering into a disaster area without checking in with whomever has command responsibility. If that’s the definition, then “self deployment” is a big risk and something I would discourage. 

 

PS - if there is a situation where regular emergency services are overwhelmed, the process is to call in mutual aid from surrounding regions. When that isn’t enough, FEMA can be activated by local officials. From the time mutual aid is called, a command element generally shifts from whomever was there first to whomever is best qualified as help arrives. The command element begins to adopt FEMA incident command structure and process. I can see good reason and benefit to connecting with command, checking in with skills available, and taking an assignment at that point. I can’t imagine a communication challenged situation where emergency management would not welcome competent communication’s support. If you do find yourself in that situation, understand that there is a lot going on and our role is one of many. Do your best to do what they need you to do and you’ll be considered value add. Best scenario is if this appeals to you, start becoming familiar with FEMA ICS and NIMS now, connect with your local fire and police, and let them know you (and vice versa). Most operators are nervous around untested people serving in high pressure environments. They’ve seen too many “squirrels” who don’t adapt well when adrenaline is flowing. 

Edited August 13, 2023 by KC3WII
Added bonus clarification for those interested in this subject.